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Post by bobafett590 on Dec 29, 2013 15:06:16 GMT -5
Untrue. Plagueis was still alive while Maul was the "second" "Sith". Maybe. But in Episode 1, which is more canon Maul has the Darth title, Ventress never had that. Because if Dooku gave Ventress the title of "Darth", then Sidious would get angry. |
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Post by Namialus on Dec 29, 2013 15:09:29 GMT -5
Untrue. Plagueis was still alive while Maul was the "second" "Sith". Maybe. But in Episode 1, which is more canon Maul has the Darth title, Ventress never had that. Sidious lied to him - he was never considered an actual Sith. |
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Post by Potato on Dec 29, 2013 15:47:15 GMT -5
Sidious still planned to make Maul the second sith. When he killed Plagueis he expected Maul to come back alive so he would then continue to serve Sidious with the title of Darth. Maul was a sith.
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Post by Pinda on Dec 29, 2013 15:50:26 GMT -5
Maybe. But in Episode 1, which is more canon Maul has the Darth title, Ventress never had that. Sidious lied to him - he was never considered an actual Sith. None of the SW movies or TCw stated Maul wasn't really a Sith. Actually in both Episode 1 and TCW they confirmed him to be Sith, so he is Sith. |
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Post by Namialus on Dec 29, 2013 16:00:36 GMT -5
Sidious lied to him - he was never considered an actual Sith. None of the SW movies or TCw stated Maul wasn't really a Sith. Actually in both Episode 1 and TCW they confirmed him to be Sith, so he is Sith. Yes, Sith, and so is Ventress, but they're not Lords. They're just Sith assassins - trained in the ways of the Sith by actual Sith masters but not granted the title of Darth. |
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Post by Potato on Dec 29, 2013 16:17:55 GMT -5
In the end the title doesn't really matter though. It's their own personal experiences. Maul has trained with the dark side his entire life and knows nothing other than it. He knows secrets of the sith. He's trained under the dark lord of the sith himself. Even if he was used as a pawn, he went through immense training, far harder than that of Ventress under Dooku.
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Post by Namialus on Dec 29, 2013 16:22:41 GMT -5
In the end the title doesn't really matter though. It's their own personal experiences. Maul has trained with the dark side his entire life and knows nothing other than it. He knows secrets of the sith. He's trained under the dark lord of the sith himself. Even if he was used as a pawn, he went through immense training, far harder than that of Ventress under Dooku. He doesn't know all the secrets - he can't do Force lightning and such. Those are the true powers of the Sith. |
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Post by Pinda on Dec 29, 2013 17:15:16 GMT -5
None of the SW movies or TCw stated Maul wasn't really a Sith. Actually in both Episode 1 and TCW they confirmed him to be Sith, so he is Sith. Yes, Sith, and so is Ventress, but they're not Lords. They're just Sith assassins - trained in the ways of the Sith by actual Sith masters but not granted the title of Darth. Ventress is no Sith. She's a Dark Jedi. And Maul was trained as more than just an assassin. That was the point of the S5 Maul arc, to show he's not just a warrior but a fully trained Sith Lord. |
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Post by Kenbo on Dec 29, 2013 19:11:21 GMT -5
I think Maul would win by a longshot (if we're talking about before e got cut in half.. even wit the cybernetic legs i think he would still win though..)
Maul has legit sith training and he's a legit darth.... Ventress on the other hand is just an acolyte. Also Maul received training from Sidious himself whereas Ventress was trained by Dooku.
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Post by Newan on Dec 29, 2013 19:53:08 GMT -5
I think Maul would win by a longshot (if we're talking about before e got cut in half.. even wit the cybernetic legs i think he would still win though..) Maul has legit sith training and he's a legit darth.... Ventress on the other hand is just an acolyte. Also Maul received training from Sidious himself whereas Ventress was trained by Dooku. Yeah Maul is a true sith. Ventress is just a Dark Jedi, Acolyte or Dark Adept whichever you prefer.... |
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Post by Star on Dec 29, 2013 22:00:44 GMT -5
However, Ventress knows both the light side and the dark side, and I consider this a big advantage. And also, I think Ventress is smarter when it comes to fighting than Maul. She's quicker. Maul is always a savage and aggressive killer whereas Ventress ALWAYS uses the environment around her to help. That is a good advantage, but I don't know if it would be enough. Ventress is quicker and more resourceful, but Maul is not that aggressive. He's also very smart. He usually has plans. And keep in mind that he defeated Pre Vizsla in a free for all in an environment that favored Vizsla. That's a big victory for Maul. I don't think Ventress could've done that. I actually think that in battle strategy, they're both almost equal in intelligence. |
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Post by bane on Dec 29, 2013 22:20:26 GMT -5
However, Ventress knows both the light side and the dark side, and I consider this a big advantage. And also, I think Ventress is smarter when it comes to fighting than Maul. She's quicker. Maul is always a savage and aggressive killer whereas Ventress ALWAYS uses the environment around her to help. That is a good advantage, but I don't know if it would be enough. Ventress is quicker and more resourceful, but Maul is not that aggressive. He's also very smart. He usually has plans. And keep in mind that he defeated Pre Vizsla in a free for all in an environment that favored Vizsla. That's a big victory for Maul. I don't think Ventress could've done that. I actually think that in battle strategy, they're both almost equal in intelligence. Remember that the environment doesn't really have anything to do with this fight, because they're in a huge open area. |
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Post by Star on Dec 29, 2013 23:10:34 GMT -5
That is a good advantage, but I don't know if it would be enough. Ventress is quicker and more resourceful, but Maul is not that aggressive. He's also very smart. He usually has plans. And keep in mind that he defeated Pre Vizsla in a free for all in an environment that favored Vizsla. That's a big victory for Maul. I don't think Ventress could've done that. I actually think that in battle strategy, they're both almost equal in intelligence. Remember that the environment doesn't really have anything to do with this fight, because they're in a huge open area. Which supports Maul even more |
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Post by Namialus on Dec 30, 2013 1:18:24 GMT -5
You can't say Maul is a Sith Lord because it's established that he isn't no matter how much you want to believe it - he was trained, but so was Ventress. Of course, he had more training than her, which makes him darker, but he wasn't an actual Lord. Sidious was being generous when he considered *Dooku* a Lord.
The whole reason Sidious called Maul "Darth" was to hide the existence of Plagueis - no one would suspect another Master. Sidious was the Apprentice of the Two when Maul died - Maul wasn't part of the Two.
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Post by bane on Dec 30, 2013 1:19:42 GMT -5
You can't say Maul is a Sith Lord because it's established that he isn't no matter how much you want to believe it - he was trained, but so was Ventress. Of course, he had more training than her, which makes him darker, but he wasn't an actual Lord. Sidious was being generous when he considered *Dooku* a Lord. The whole reason Sidious called Maul "Darth" was to hide the existence of Plagueis - no one would suspect another Master. Sidious was the Apprentice of the Two when Maul died - Maul wasn't part of the Two. I don't know how a title has much to do with the fight but yes... |
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Post by Namialus on Dec 30, 2013 1:36:37 GMT -5
You can't say Maul is a Sith Lord because it's established that he isn't no matter how much you want to believe it - he was trained, but so was Ventress. Of course, he had more training than her, which makes him darker, but he wasn't an actual Lord. Sidious was being generous when he considered *Dooku* a Lord. The whole reason Sidious called Maul "Darth" was to hide the existence of Plagueis - no one would suspect another Master. Sidious was the Apprentice of the Two when Maul died - Maul wasn't part of the Two. I don't know how a title has much to do with the fight but yes... A difference in skill, IMO. |
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Post by Newan on Dec 30, 2013 3:08:24 GMT -5
You can't say Maul is a Sith Lord because it's established that he isn't no matter how much you want to believe it - he was trained, but so was Ventress. Of course, he had more training than her, which makes him darker, but he wasn't an actual Lord. Sidious was being generous when he considered *Dooku* a Lord. The whole reason Sidious called Maul "Darth" was to hide the existence of Plagueis - no one would suspect another Master. Sidious was the Apprentice of the Two when Maul died - Maul wasn't part of the Two. -Plagueis was pawn he was weak but Sidious needed him around until things could finish taking shape. - Dooku Is well deserving to be a Sith Lord though he is a Darth. The only reason that their may be conflict is because Dooku is not pure sith like Maul. Dooku is a fallen Jedi. A pure Sith like Maul would get the first right of being Sith that has always been the Sith Way. So basically even if Maul survived episode 1 he would still be Palpatines apprentice he wouldn't get rid of him for Dooku. Though that's not to say Dooku wouldn't ally with them and go back too be a Noble of his home planet. - Maul is a Lord because it has been established with his title Darth. And In over 1000 years I doubt their was only 2 sith every time I'm sure it was broken. |
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Post by bobafett590 on Dec 30, 2013 7:37:59 GMT -5
If Maul lived, Dooku still would have became a Sith Lord replacing him. Sidious needed a political idealist like Dooku to instigate The Clone Wars.
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Post by Pinda on Dec 30, 2013 8:19:45 GMT -5
You can't say Maul is a Sith Lord because it's established that he isn't no matter how much you want to believe it - he was trained, but so was Ventress. Of course, he had more training than her, which makes him darker, but he wasn't an actual Lord. Sidious was being generous when he considered *Dooku* a Lord. The whole reason Sidious called Maul "Darth" was to hide the existence of Plagueis - no one would suspect another Master. Sidious was the Apprentice of the Two when Maul died - Maul wasn't part of the Two. In Phantom Menace and TCW it's established he IS a Sith. I know the Darth Plaguies book may say otherwise, but Phantom Menace and TCW are true canon. I'm pretty sure George Lucas intended for Maul to be a full Sith. |
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Post by Pinda on Dec 30, 2013 8:21:30 GMT -5
If Maul lived, Dooku still would have became a Sith Lord replacing him. Sidious needed a political idealist like Dooku to instigate The Clone Wars. No. Maul knew about the Clone Wars and he was trained in politics too (Mandalora/Maul arc) so I'm pretty sure Sidious wanted him to lead the Separatists in the Clone Wars, until he "died". |
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Post by Star on Dec 30, 2013 9:47:39 GMT -5
If Maul lived, Dooku still would have became a Sith Lord replacing him. Sidious needed a political idealist like Dooku to instigate The Clone Wars. No. Maul knew about the Clone Wars and he was trained in politics too (Mandalora/Maul arc) so I'm pretty sure Sidious wanted him to lead the Separatists in the Clone Wars, until he "died". And have Dooku help him somehow. Sidious wouldn't be able to pass up a skilled master like him. Especially as times were to get darker. |
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Post by Namialus on Dec 30, 2013 11:22:54 GMT -5
You can't say Maul is a Sith Lord because it's established that he isn't no matter how much you want to believe it - he was trained, but so was Ventress. Of course, he had more training than her, which makes him darker, but he wasn't an actual Lord. Sidious was being generous when he considered *Dooku* a Lord. The whole reason Sidious called Maul "Darth" was to hide the existence of Plagueis - no one would suspect another Master. Sidious was the Apprentice of the Two when Maul died - Maul wasn't part of the Two. -Plagueis was pawn he was weak but Sidious needed him around until things could finish taking shape. - Dooku Is well deserving to be a Sith Lord though he is a Darth. The only reason that their may be conflict is because Dooku is not pure sith like Maul. Dooku is a fallen Jedi. A pure Sith like Maul would get the first right of being Sith that has always been the Sith Way. So basically even if Maul survived episode 1 he would still be Palpatines apprentice he wouldn't get rid of him for Dooku. Though that's not to say Dooku wouldn't ally with them and go back too be a Noble of his home planet. - Maul is a Lord because it has been established with his title Darth. And In over 1000 years I doubt their was only 2 sith every time I'm sure it was broken. -I'm not sure I would say the Sith that could control life was "weak." If anything he's one of the most powerful. -Dooku is still considered a pawn. The only actual Sith Sidious wanted was Vader - everyone else was a lie. -His "title" was a lie. |
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Post by Namialus on Dec 30, 2013 11:25:18 GMT -5
You can't say Maul is a Sith Lord because it's established that he isn't no matter how much you want to believe it - he was trained, but so was Ventress. Of course, he had more training than her, which makes him darker, but he wasn't an actual Lord. Sidious was being generous when he considered *Dooku* a Lord. The whole reason Sidious called Maul "Darth" was to hide the existence of Plagueis - no one would suspect another Master. Sidious was the Apprentice of the Two when Maul died - Maul wasn't part of the Two. In Phantom Menace and TCW it's established he IS a Sith. I know the Darth Plaguies book may say otherwise, but Phantom Menace and TCW are true canon. I'm pretty sure George Lucas intended for Maul to be a full Sith. He is a Sith, but an assassin, not a true Lord. That's why he's always sent by Sidious to do assassination missions and what not - also, think of this - why didn't Maul have a fake identity with which to go out in public? Palpatine and Plagueis did, and so did Dooku (although it was just not revealing he was Sith), but why not Maul? Because Maul was an assassin and that's all he was meant for. When Sidious found Maul as a child, he showed him to Plagueis. Plagueis then allowed his training as a useful assassin. |
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Post by Potato on Dec 30, 2013 11:40:39 GMT -5
No. Maul knew about the Clone Wars and he was trained in politics too (Mandalora/Maul arc) so I'm pretty sure Sidious wanted him to lead the Separatists in the Clone Wars, until he "died". And have Dooku help him somehow. Sidious wouldn't be able to pass up a skilled master like him. Especially as times were to get darker. I don't think Sidious even knew Dooku was going to turn while he was training Maul though. When Dooku started getting closer to Palpatine he realized this and when Qui Gonn actually died he knew Dooku would turn. But I do think he planned to use Maul during the Clone Wars. Sith need to be trained in every aspect, including manipulation. |
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Post by Newan on Dec 30, 2013 11:40:40 GMT -5
-Plagueis was pawn he was weak but Sidious needed him around until things could finish taking shape. - Dooku Is well deserving to be a Sith Lord though he is a Darth. The only reason that their may be conflict is because Dooku is not pure sith like Maul. Dooku is a fallen Jedi. A pure Sith like Maul would get the first right of being Sith that has always been the Sith Way. So basically even if Maul survived episode 1 he would still be Palpatines apprentice he wouldn't get rid of him for Dooku. Though that's not to say Dooku wouldn't ally with them and go back too be a Noble of his home planet. - Maul is a Lord because it has been established with his title Darth. And In over 1000 years I doubt their was only 2 sith every time I'm sure it was broken. -I'm not sure I would say the Sith that could control life was "weak." If anything he's one of the most powerful. -Dooku is still considered a pawn. The only actual Sith Sidious wanted was Vader - everyone else was a lie. -His "title" was a lie.He was a scholar and scientist nothing more. His combat strength was limited he neglected real power. Pit him against anyone and he loses. |
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Post by Potato on Dec 30, 2013 11:41:17 GMT -5
But none of this has to do with the actual duel. You can call Maul a sith if you want to or not, but it doesn't change his skills.
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Post by Namialus on Dec 30, 2013 11:43:04 GMT -5
-I'm not sure I would say the Sith that could control life was "weak." If anything he's one of the most powerful. -Dooku is still considered a pawn. The only actual Sith Sidious wanted was Vader - everyone else was a lie. -His "title" was a lie.He was a scholar and scientist nothing more. His combat strength was limited he neglected real power. Pit him against anyone and he loses. He was powerful in the Force, far more powerful than Sidious IMO, and he was even more brilliant than Sidious. Sidious is like the lesser version of Plagueis. |
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Post by Namialus on Dec 30, 2013 11:44:27 GMT -5
And have Dooku help him somehow. Sidious wouldn't be able to pass up a skilled master like him. Especially as times were to get darker. I don't think Sidious even knew Dooku was going to turn while he was training Maul though. When Dooku started getting closer to Palpatine he realized this and when Qui Gonn actually died he knew Dooku would turn. But I do think he planned to use Maul during the Clone Wars. Sith need to be trained in every aspect, including manipulation. Sidious had been watching Dooku around before Maul was cut in half. He planned to keep them both, in a way, but Dooku was the one he wanted after Maul. |
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Post by Potato on Dec 30, 2013 11:48:16 GMT -5
I don't think Sidious even knew Dooku was going to turn while he was training Maul though. When Dooku started getting closer to Palpatine he realized this and when Qui Gonn actually died he knew Dooku would turn. But I do think he planned to use Maul during the Clone Wars. Sith need to be trained in every aspect, including manipulation. Sidious had been watching Dooku around before Maul was cut in half. He planned to keep them both, in a way, but Dooku was the one he wanted after Maul. But he still planned on Maul surviving. He didn't just train Maul in battle, he trained him for other things because sith need to know more than just fighting in combat. |
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Post by Pinda on Dec 30, 2013 12:01:43 GMT -5
In Phantom Menace and TCW it's established he IS a Sith. I know the Darth Plaguies book may say otherwise, but Phantom Menace and TCW are true canon. I'm pretty sure George Lucas intended for Maul to be a full Sith. He is a Sith, but an assassin, not a true Lord. That's why he's always sent by Sidious to do assassination missions and what not - also, think of this - why didn't Maul have a fake identity with which to go out in public? Palpatine and Plagueis did, and so did Dooku (although it was just not revealing he was Sith), but why not Maul? Because Maul was an assassin and that's all he was meant for. When Sidious found Maul as a child, he showed him to Plagueis. Plagueis then allowed his training as a useful assassin. Maul had no fake identity because he was no one before he became Sith. Like you said Sidious found him as a baby, he didn't have a real identity unlike Palpatine, Dooku and Plagueis who only became Sith at a later age. |
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