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Post by bobafett590 on Jan 3, 2014 17:29:42 GMT -5
For those of you saying Vader isn't skilled because he lost to Luke, I think you're failing to remember that Luke was his son. Of course Vader isn't going to hurt him. If Vader's better than Luke then and didn't want to hurt him, he still could have held him back if he was really better. If you lose you lose, there's really no excuse for it. Vader lost to Luke. Because Luke was one of the most powerful and gifted Jedi of all time and son of the Chosen One. Vader had to lose the duel to fulfil the prophecy anyway. |
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Post by bobafett590 on Jan 3, 2014 17:31:39 GMT -5
1. Grenade in the face doesn't compare much to burning in lava and getting electrocuted by two pylons and numerous other things Vader has survived 2. Luke mirrored Vader's abilities in ROTJ on the Death Star when fighting him and copied some of his style 3. Fair enough, but there weren't more Masters than Padawans definitely 1. He only survived because of Palpatine. That point isn't really valid. 2. And? Copying isn't necessarily a good thing in this situation. For example, Mace Windu basically invented Vapad, and I attribute this to his great skill with a lightsaber. 3. But there were a fair amount. 1. It is valid. Vader would have waited quite some time until Palpatine came along. And Vader was completely fine after getting electrocuted by two pylons. 2. Copying is a great feat, it allowed Luke to predict Vader's attacks so he could beat him 3. I guess, but many of them weren't that skilled and Malgus fought most of them individually. |
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Post by Pinda on Jan 3, 2014 17:32:05 GMT -5
Because Luke was one of the most powerful and gifted Jedi of all time and son of the Chosen One. You keep saying that, but it isn't true. Luke wasn't that powerful. At least not in the movies. He could defeat Vader, but he was no match at all for the Emperor. He couldn't even sense the Emperor's power, he just looked at him as a weak old man. |
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Post by Potato on Jan 3, 2014 17:32:41 GMT -5
If Vader's better than Luke then and didn't want to hurt him, he still could have held him back if he was really better. If you lose you lose, there's really no excuse for it. Vader lost to Luke. Because Luke was one of the most powerful and gifted Jedi of all time and son of the Chosen One. Vader had to lose the duel to fulfil the prophecy anyway. So you're saying Luke just won because of a prophecy? Luke wasn't extremely powerful at that time. I do agree that he's powerful later on, but in ROTJ he's still only a jedi knight. |
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Post by bobafett590 on Jan 3, 2014 17:33:53 GMT -5
Because Luke was one of the most powerful and gifted Jedi of all time and son of the Chosen One. You keep saying that, but it isn't true. Luke wasn't that powerful. At least not in the movies. He could defeat Vader, but he was no match at all for the Emperor. He couldn't even sense the Emperor's power, he just looked at him as a weak old man. 1. He was the son of the Chosen One 2. He helped the prophecy come true and defeated a Sith Lord after a few years of training 3. Could mirror abilities allowing him to counter enemy attacks 4. He revived the Jedi Order 5. He was wise 6. Naturally brilliant fighting skills |
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Post by bobafett590 on Jan 3, 2014 17:35:39 GMT -5
Because Luke was one of the most powerful and gifted Jedi of all time and son of the Chosen One. Vader had to lose the duel to fulfil the prophecy anyway. So you're saying Luke just won because of a prophecy? Luke wasn't extremely powerful at that time. I do agree that he's powerful later on, but in ROTJ he's still only a jedi knight. No, there were numerous other reasons. Luke had a very strong affinity with the force, he could mirror abilities to counter his opponent's attacks and learnt much more rapidly than any Jedi. In ROTJ, he could give some Pre-EP3 Jedi Knights and Masters a run for their money. |
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Post by Pinda on Jan 3, 2014 17:37:57 GMT -5
You keep saying that, but it isn't true. Luke wasn't that powerful. At least not in the movies. He could defeat Vader, but he was no match at all for the Emperor. He couldn't even sense the Emperor's power, he just looked at him as a weak old man. 1. He was the son of the Chosen One 2. He helped the prophecy come true and defeated a Sith Lord after a few years of training 3. Could mirror abilities allowing him to counter enemy attacks 4. He revived the Jedi Order 5. He was wise 6. Naturally brilliant fighting skills 1. So? Yes that means he probably has a high midichlorian count, but that doesn't mean he doesn't need training, just look at Anakin. 2. Maybe because that Sith Lord was limited by his suit, and this pretty weak. 3. Oh really? 4. Who else had to do it? He was the only person with some Jedi training left. This doesn't proof his power. 5. Later maybe, but he certainly wasn't in the Original Trilogy. 6. I wouldn't say "brilliant" and he may have some fighting skills bu how many times did Luke actually use the force? |
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Post by bobafett590 on Jan 3, 2014 17:40:22 GMT -5
1. He was the son of the Chosen One 2. He helped the prophecy come true and defeated a Sith Lord after a few years of training 3. Could mirror abilities allowing him to counter enemy attacks 4. He revived the Jedi Order 5. He was wise 6. Naturally brilliant fighting skills 1. So? Yes that means he probably has a high midichlorian count, but that doesn't mean he doesn't need training, just look at Anakin. 2. Maybe because that Sith Lord was limited by his suit, and this pretty weak. 3. Oh really? 4. Who else had to do it? He was the only person with some Jedi training left. This doesn't proof his power. 5. Later maybe, but he certainly wasn't in the Original Trilogy. 6. I wouldn't say "brilliant" and he may have some fighting skills bu how many times did Luke actually use the force? 1.Yes, that means strong affinity with the force 2. No, Vader was powerful, Luke defeating him is remarkable 3. Yes really look on Wookipedia at the Shien page: "Later, aboard the second Death Star, Luke was able to duel Vader on an even footing, mirroring Vader's Form V technique." 4. He was the only one who could really do it 5. I guess, but he was pretty wise 6. He didn't need to |
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Post by bane on Jan 3, 2014 17:46:32 GMT -5
1. He only survived because of Palpatine. That point isn't really valid. 2. And? Copying isn't necessarily a good thing in this situation. For example, Mace Windu basically invented Vapad, and I attribute this to his great skill with a lightsaber. 3. But there were a fair amount. 1. It is valid. Vader would have waited quite some time until Palpatine came along. And Vader was completely fine after getting electrocuted by two pylons. 2. Copying is a great feat, it allowed Luke to predict Vader's attacks so he could beat him 3. I guess, but many of them weren't that skilled and Malgus fought most of them individually. 1. I'm sure he would have, but the point is he came along to save him in the first place. 2. I seriously doubt that. 2. Your point? Well yes, now that I think about it Malgus would need a multitude of Jedi to defeat him... |
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Post by bobafett590 on Jan 3, 2014 17:51:08 GMT -5
1. It is valid. Vader would have waited quite some time until Palpatine came along. And Vader was completely fine after getting electrocuted by two pylons. 2. Copying is a great feat, it allowed Luke to predict Vader's attacks so he could beat him 3. I guess, but many of them weren't that skilled and Malgus fought most of them individually. 1. I'm sure he would have, but the point is he came along to save him in the first place. 2. I seriously doubt that. 2. Your point? Well yes, now that I think about it Malgus would need a multitude of Jedi to defeat him... 1. Anyway, Vader has survived much more things than Malgus 2. Wookipedia: " Later, aboard the second Death Star, Luke was able to duel Vader on an even footing, mirroring Vader's Form V technique". 3. My point is that Malgus can hardly handle one Jedi let alone 8 well trained Jedi all at once like Vader did. Yes a multitude of decently skilled Jedi that are no where near was powerful as Luke or Vader defeated Malgus, in a Video game where you can get upgrades and numerous other things, that is therefore inaccurate. And Luke had to defeat him to fufill the prophecy and not to mention Luke was mirroring Vader's techniques. |
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Post by Kenbo on Jan 3, 2014 17:52:51 GMT -5
Am I the only one that doesn't understand why people think Luke is supe powerful and stuff? He only had like a weak of training... So he's a skywalker? so he's the chosen one's son? Anakin was never in his lifetime as powerful at some of the experienced Jedi on the council like Yoda or Mace
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Post by bobafett590 on Jan 3, 2014 17:55:00 GMT -5
Am I the only one that doesn't understand why people think Luke is supe powerful and stuff? He only had like a weak of training... So he's a skywalker? so he's the chosen one's son? Anakin was never in his lifetime as powerful at some of the experienced Jedi on the council like Yoda or Mace That's exactly the point, he could defeat a Sith Lord with only a few years of training. He has a excellent affinity with the force and could mirror abilities. Something little Jedi have ever done. What Luke learns in weeks = What normal Jedi learn in years |
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Post by Kenbo on Jan 3, 2014 17:58:42 GMT -5
Am I the only one that doesn't understand why people think Luke is supe powerful and stuff? He only had like a weak of training... So he's a skywalker? so he's the chosen one's son? Anakin was never in his lifetime as powerful at some of the experienced Jedi on the council like Yoda or Mace That's exactly the point, he could defeat a Sith Lord with only a few years of training. He has a excellent affinity with the force and could mirror abilities. Something little Jedi have ever done. What Luke learns in weeks = What normal Jedi learn in years Years? Uh.. I don't think so. Luke only knows how to hold a lightsaber and stand on his head. Also anyone could block Vader"s slow "attacks"... |
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Post by bobafett590 on Jan 3, 2014 18:00:32 GMT -5
That's exactly the point, he could defeat a Sith Lord with only a few years of training. He has a excellent affinity with the force and could mirror abilities. Something little Jedi have ever done. What Luke learns in weeks = What normal Jedi learn in years Years? Uh.. I don't think so. Luke only knows how to hold a lightsaber and stand on his head. Also anyone could block Vader"s slow "attacks"... Slow attacks?  Luke was very skilled in Form V and learned while fighting opponents Jedi need many years to fully learn lightsaber combat and force powers. Luke took much less |
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Post by Kenbo on Jan 3, 2014 18:02:10 GMT -5
Years? Uh.. I don't think so. Luke only knows how to hold a lightsaber and stand on his head. Also anyone could block Vader"s slow "attacks"... Slow attacks? View AttachmentLuke was very skilled in Form V and learned while fighting opponents Bruh that's a drawing |
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Post by Pinda on Jan 3, 2014 18:02:34 GMT -5
Years? Uh.. I don't think so. Luke only knows how to hold a lightsaber and stand on his head. Also anyone could block Vader"s slow "attacks"... Slow attacks? View AttachmentLuke was very skilled in Form V and learned while fighting opponents Jedi need many years to fully learn lightsaber combat and force powers. Luke took much less In the movies Vader is slow. Movies > Comics. So Vader is slow. |
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Post by bobafett590 on Jan 3, 2014 18:02:42 GMT -5
Slow attacks? Luke was very skilled in Form V and learned while fighting opponents Bruh that's a drawing From a canon comic which accurately depicts Darth Vader's skills |
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Post by bobafett590 on Jan 3, 2014 18:03:44 GMT -5
Slow attacks? Luke was very skilled in Form V and learned while fighting opponents Jedi need many years to fully learn lightsaber combat and force powers. Luke took much less In the movies Vader is slow. Movies > Comics. So Vader is slow. *sigh* Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough... |
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Post by Pinda on Jan 3, 2014 18:05:18 GMT -5
In the movies Vader is slow. Movies > Comics. So Vader is slow. *sigh* Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough... There is a direct contradiction to movie canon, because in the movies Vader is slow. |
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Post by Kenbo on Jan 3, 2014 18:06:52 GMT -5
In the movies Vader is slow. Movies > Comics. So Vader is slow. *sigh* Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough... It doesn't matter if nothing is contradicted or overwritten. Like Pinda said, Vader is slow in the movies so he is slow. Comics would not exist without the movies |
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Post by bobafett590 on Jan 3, 2014 18:06:58 GMT -5
*sigh* Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough... There is a direct contradiction to movie canon, because in the movies Vader is slow. However there are many factors to that: Actors, Vader not wanting to kill his son, defensive purposes. It is an ambiguous contradiction so we can ignore it.. |
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Post by bobafett590 on Jan 3, 2014 18:07:55 GMT -5
*sigh* Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough... It doesn't matter if nothing is contradicted or overwritten. Like Pinda said, Vader is slow in the movies so he is slow. Comics would not exist without the movies It does! Vader being slow in the movies and faster in the comics is an ambiguous contradiction so we can ignore it |
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Post by bane on Jan 3, 2014 18:12:46 GMT -5
It doesn't matter if nothing is contradicted or overwritten. Like Pinda said, Vader is slow in the movies so he is slow. Comics would not exist without the movies It does! Vader being slow in the movies is an ambiguous contradiction so we can ignore it What came first the chicken or the egg? The comics only ever seem loosely based on the films. |
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Post by bobafett590 on Jan 3, 2014 18:18:56 GMT -5
It does! Vader being slow in the movies is an ambiguous contradiction so we can ignore it What came first the chicken or the egg? The comics only ever seem loosely based on the films. Because they are the Expanded Universe, they expand Movie canon to expand the characters and explain things that can't be in the movies |
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Post by bane on Jan 3, 2014 18:20:32 GMT -5
What came first the chicken or the egg? The comics only ever seem loosely based on the films. Because they are the Expanded Universe, they expand Movie canon to expand the characters and explain things that can't be in the movies I don't call granting Vader impossible agility "explaining things." |
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Post by Kenbo on Jan 3, 2014 18:23:56 GMT -5
What came first the chicken or the egg? The comics only ever seem loosely based on the films. Because they are the Expanded Universe, they expand Movie canon to expand the characters and explain things that can't be in the movies However expanding something doesn't mean taking a wall with a lightsaber and making him into some killing machine.. |
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Post by Newan on Jan 3, 2014 18:57:05 GMT -5
Like others said Luke had little training he may have been able to learn fast like Revan but either way Luke showed no connection too the force before he came too Ben Kenobi. And he was like 19 years old by that point some people can use basic force stuff at a young age without training. So Luke would need a lot of training which he only had a few days of it from Yoda and about a day with Kenobi. He may have learned some stuff on his own but either war Vader should have been able too absolutely overpower Luke in every way.....
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Post by Potato on Jan 3, 2014 19:07:52 GMT -5
Am I the only one that doesn't understand why people think Luke is supe powerful and stuff? He only had like a weak of training... So he's a skywalker? so he's the chosen one's son? Anakin was never in his lifetime as powerful at some of the experienced Jedi on the council like Yoda or Mace I agree. I mean really the only point that supports that is what you said, that he's the Chosen One's son. The same goes for Vader. He's really not all that powerful. Yes, he's the Chosen One, but that doesn't make him super powerful. It just means he'll restore balance to the force, and in this case do it by killing Sidious and saving his son. You can't just use medichlorian count to say how skilled they really are. |
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Post by Star on Jan 3, 2014 22:37:18 GMT -5
Maybe Vader got slower over time? After all, these comics on him take place mostly before TESB and ROTJ. And even if Vader is slow, he has more lightsaber skill and knowledge in the force. That's VERY ESSENTIAL to fighting. Much more than agility and strength. Palpatine is the greatest sith ever and he was strongest in those two categories. That means this'll help favor Vader even more. Also, as for GL canon, if he indeed said that Vader is 80% as powerful as Sidious in his suit, than those supporting Malgus have already lost. There's no way that Malgus is a higher percentile than that compared to Sidious.
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Post by Newan on Jan 3, 2014 22:49:31 GMT -5
If were basing stuff off what people in real life say especially George Lucas then all these battles are pointless this is based on abilities we know they have not what some person in real life that probably only understand the movies he made rather than anything else. And I would like too know when he actually confirmed this was it before prequels or some thing when there was literally only 2 sith...
I find it very hard to believe that Vader has 80% of his power.... Sidious duel in TCW was very skilled where you see Vader do nothing close to that. Electricity is vulnerable to him. Luke says he will die if he takes off the helmet. Then Vader responds "nothing can stop that now" that means he was taken down by Sidious lightning or did Luke cut off his hand and the loss of wires killed him and destroyed his life support some how? I think the lightning is more accurate. And just because Sidious is his master does not mean he is that powerful it's not like Sidious showed him everything he knew and even if he wanted too he CANT cause Vaders suit limits him greatly.
And you got too also consider that anything can happen no matter if someone is considered the greatest sith. It's like sports the best team in the NFL can still lose too the worst team right? They don't get a free pass. That's means technically anyone could have a chance too kill someone. You just can't say they are the best and this guy confirmed it end of discussion.
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Wars Story
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