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Post by Spidyyr on Dec 6, 2018 15:25:10 GMT -5
This might be the ultimate don't judge a book by its cover arc. I remember thinking this would be a pretty standard, formulaic, tensionless. And now it's one of my personal favorites. But how is it now? Just as good, or is it bogged down by one too many truly embarrassing continuity errors? Let's see.
December 7th - 13th 2018
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Post by Newan on Dec 6, 2018 15:37:16 GMT -5
Good episodes here with some cool characters and a nice mix between clones and Jedi.
Impact wise on the show as a whole these episodes are actually pretty middle grounded, but quality wise they are definitely up there.
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Post by Star on Dec 6, 2018 15:42:51 GMT -5
Good episodes here with some cool characters and a nice mix between clones and Jedi. Impact wise on the show as a whole these episodes are actually pretty middle grounded, but quality wise they are definitely up there. I agree. The story does not affect the overall series too much, but this arc is very solid nonetheless. Between this arc and the previous two, I like how this one focuses one the main conflict again and really epitomizes the "Clone War".
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Post by Newan on Dec 6, 2018 15:43:45 GMT -5
Also coincidence or planned that the final training exam on Kamino and the Prison are both called "The Citadel"?
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Post by Newan on Dec 6, 2018 15:44:26 GMT -5
Good episodes here with some cool characters and a nice mix between clones and Jedi. Impact wise on the show as a whole these episodes are actually pretty middle grounded, but quality wise they are definitely up there. I agree. The story does not affect the overall series too much, but this arc is very solid nonetheless. Between this arc and the previous two, I like how this one focuses one the main conflict again and really epitomizes the "Clone War". But the previous arc answers more questions about the saga and prequels as a whole.
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Post by Star on Dec 6, 2018 15:49:25 GMT -5
I agree. The story does not affect the overall series too much, but this arc is very solid nonetheless. Between this arc and the previous two, I like how this one focuses one the main conflict again and really epitomizes the "Clone War". But the previous arc answers more questions about the saga and prequels as a whole. It does, but I meant that this arc best encompasses the Republic-CIS conflict of the three.
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Post by Spidyyr on Dec 6, 2018 15:53:23 GMT -5
Also coincidence or planned that the final training exam on Kamino and the Prison are both called "The Citadel"? I think it was planned.
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Post by Newan on Dec 7, 2018 15:05:30 GMT -5
The Citadel is a good episode but there’s some problems with it... Like the fact that the background clone numbers seem to get replenished even though we see multiple die on screen. Now this leads me to my next question, what kind of prisoners are in the Citadel, surely there’s more then just Piell and some officers? Maybe some Republic prisoners? If they showed them liberating lots of prisoners, like clones and stuff they could realistically replenish their numbers and create a small army.
Also we know from the next episode that Tarkin says he and the Chancellor are kind of close, why would the Chancellor stick him with a less influential Jedi like Piell I wonder, also kind of random but I don’t think Kenobi even has an admiral? Although Kenobi is more of a ground commander as well. I always wanted Yularen to get transferred or something and have Tarkin be Anakins new admiral in the later seasons, but I think a Tarkin likely takes an administrative position on Coruscant.
Overall the episode is still good, Osi Sobeck is a different kind of separatist and I believe he was voiced by JAT as well so that’s cool. I did like the Empire Strikes Back cameo with the carbon freezing. Having Fives and Echo is cool as well and makes the premiere more meaningful.
I think most of this arc was based on an earlier comic though, I remember reading a Clone Wars Comic where Anakin, Kenobi and Ahsoka liberate a prison.
Anyways I’ll give it an 8/10.
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Post by Newan on Dec 8, 2018 20:26:55 GMT -5
Counterattack is a better episode with a lot less continuity errors and leaves less questions. I really like the dynamic between Tarkin and Anakin most of all, its extremely well done and it’s understandable they get along later. Although I’m not sure if Tarkin ever knew Vader’s true identity, I think it was only the Emperor and Thrawn I know speculated it was Anakin but I haven’t read the newest Thrawn book yet.
I wonder if the ending part where Piell rides on Anakins back is meant to be something similar to Luke and Yoda in ESB. I feel like this arc has tons of ESB references. The droid shield things are cool and make sense for a prison, Echos death is kind of weird and he like single handily screws the group, it also doesn’t really make you feel like you really want to see Echo again in the show IMO... even though he’s in Bad Batch.
Anyways I’ll give this one a 9/10
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Post by Newan on Dec 9, 2018 13:44:45 GMT -5
I like Citadel Rescue but I think it falls just a bit short of being a 10... ultimately none of this matters does it? Dooku knows who the Chancellor is, he can just give the information back to the Sepratists anyways. Which is obviously what he does when they attack Coruscant. I mean yeah they wanted to rescue the prisoners but still the main objective is irrelevant which has always been a problem I’ve had with the prequels is that one guy orchestrated everything, although there are a few arcs that are out of Palpatines control for the most part, like Umbara is a great example of that. It’s a completely separate story and Krell has no relation to Palpatine in any way.
I guess maybe I could see the argument that the sepratists try so hard to retain the information because Palpatine doesn’t know what the Jedi and Republic military will do with the information, he doesn’t want the war to end too quickly I guess.
Overall the episode is good, more interaction with Tarkin and Anakin and more references to the OT. I liked the Saesee Tiin had a part as well, he’s a cool Jedi that wasn’t featured much. And I liked his reference to The Old Republic. Piells death felt kind of forced but I’m ok with it.
Also random question but how did Piell and Tarkin come by this information to begin with?
Anyways I’m going to give this one a 9/10. Good episode but some continuity flaws that plague the whole arc. Overall arc score is a 26/30 or an 86.6% of possible points.
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Post by Newan on Dec 9, 2018 14:04:07 GMT -5
This is also a good example of a perfect 3 episode arc and not the trash we see in season 5...
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Post by Spidyyr on Dec 9, 2018 14:25:10 GMT -5
This is also a good example of a perfect 3 episode arc and not the trash we see in season 5... I think this run of episodes show not everything has to be fucking bloated into four parts. A few things deserve it but most really really don’t.
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Post by Newan on Dec 9, 2018 14:29:22 GMT -5
This is also a good example of a perfect 3 episode arc and not the trash we see in season 5... I think this run of episodes show not everything has to be Potato is Awesomeing bloated into four parts. A few things deserve it but most really really don’t. The only arcs that deserved 4 parts are Umbara, Season 5 Maul arc and the ones in season 6 that are 4 parts.
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Post by Newan on Dec 9, 2018 14:30:00 GMT -5
I guess the season 5 finale is fine, Deception arc could have been 3 but the ending was so bad for that one anyways...
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Post by Star on Dec 9, 2018 16:11:15 GMT -5
I think this run of episodes show not everything has to be Potato is Awesomeing bloated into four parts. A few things deserve it but most really really don’t. The only arcs that deserved 4 parts are Umbara, Season 5 Maul arc and the ones in season 6 that are 4 parts. I agree, but I'd add that the S2 Geonosis arc was also fine.
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Post by Newan on Dec 9, 2018 19:09:36 GMT -5
The only arcs that deserved 4 parts are Umbara, Season 5 Maul arc and the ones in season 6 that are 4 parts. I agree, but I'd add that the S2 Geonosis arc was also fine. I consider that a 3 parter and a 2 parter personally, senate spy - the fall of the weapons factory is one arc, the zombie worms are another
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Post by Spidyyr on Dec 11, 2018 13:15:55 GMT -5
I remember when this arc came out, my sixth grade class had just finished reading a book where the main character climbs a fictional mountain called the Citadel.
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Post by Spidyyr on Dec 11, 2018 20:55:50 GMT -5
The Citadel is pretty obviously the weakest episode in the second half of Season 3, but it's a pretty good episode for being the worst one. There is a cleverness to many of the traps in the Citadel that I have to admire. And a lot of cool elements are introduced here. I like the reprogrammed Battle Droids, I like seeing Tarkin, and I like the carbonite solution even though its efficiency makes all the worry for Han in ESB seem a little much. Sobeck is a pretty good villain, certainly one the top one-off Seppies. This may sound a bit odd, but this one of my favorite C-3PO appearances. I think this is how he should be used: not as a main character but available for quick appearances and jokes. But for all that, it's a bit weak coming off of Mortis. And idk if it's just me, but Ahsoka feels less mature in this one than she should. I know the show doesn't like to do too many callbacks but I would've liked if they gave Ahsoka's death two episodes ago as a reason Anakin is so worried about her. They could've even played that into the next arc, like "I can't let them take you away again" or something. But my biggest issue with this episode is it doesn't properly reintroduce Echo and Fives. Yes, I recognize them, but not everyone will with all that's going on. Especially when they're in all new armor. And it's not like their helmet designs would likely be all that remembered from ARC Troopers. Idk, this always bothered me a bit. If they weren't gonna be important later then fine but considering what happens later it would've been nice to have Cody call them by name. At least they fixed this in Umbara. Anyway, this is a pretty fun episode that just kinda gets lost among all the greatness of this run of episodes. 8/10
And before I forget, Stolen Separatist Shuttle Count: 5
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Post by Spidyyr on Dec 11, 2018 21:19:54 GMT -5
The most memorable thing about Counterattack might just be its brutality. All three Clone deaths(I'm counting Echo but we'll get there later) are pretty dang shocking, and I kinda doubt you would've seen anything like them in the show's early days. The show is more ruthless here than its ever been except for maybe in "Lethal Trackdown." The biggest problem with this episode might just be its crazy continuity. There would have to be three 212th clones at the beginning for the story to make sense. Also, one reprogrammed battle droid is shot at the end but comes back in the next one. The good news is that unless you're counting, and you probably aren't on the first go, you likely won't notice. Anakin and Tarkin's interactions are great in this episode. From how we know Anakin in the series, he seems like he wouldn't click with someone like Tarkin. Yet the dialogue does a good job showing you their common ground and why they would form a friendship. I like how everything goes wrong at once. I know that's the moral but it feels quite subversive to what we've seen in the show. We hear Plo talk about how they don't want to send a whole fleet to get the team out. It seems like of course, that won't happen, but the Council's hands are forced and they just say okay, send it, we gotta do what we gotta do. Now the big thing: Echo. I have very mixed feelings about this. On one hand, I am fully okay with Echo dying. It's a shocker and a heartbreaker but it's ballsy. And it really allows Fives to shine in his later appearances. This also reinforces things going wrong. Not every hero gets an epic sacrifice, even if they try and give everything. I like this. It feels like an injustice that Echo died for ultimately no reason. But that's war. It often doesn't have a point. But conversely, this should have happened in an arc where Echo had more of a role. This was just the wrong arc to kill Echo in. Before his death scene, his only real notable line was about the original tunnels, something which Echo likely would have studied and been excited to explore. Either kill Echo in a different arc, or give him and Fives some substantial dialogue. I have no problems with the death scene itself. It's a cool ass battle and I love the shot of the heroes all switching on their swords. But the buildup could've been way better. I like this episode a lot but due to a few flaws, I can't go any higher than 8/10.
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Post by Spidyyr on Dec 11, 2018 21:35:45 GMT -5
Citadel Rescue is a great finale and does something to elevate the entire arc. First thing, I like the landscape of Lola Sayu. It has a very nice atmosphere and is a lot less familiar than the tower. And I like just how suspenseful the episode is. It goes from one uber-tense situation to another, with just a few minutes to breathe. The music also helps the episode quite a bit. I really like the score when they're fleeing after climbing down the wall. It makes it feel a bit more epic and hopeless. The anoobas were also a great addition. They're like demonic pit bulls and make for a different and scary obstacle. I've heard people complain that one of them should not have been able to kill Even Piell. In a one-on-one might sure, but I think it makes sense since he was distracted by the crab droid. I think Even Piell's death is quite well done. I didn't think he could die when I first saw it so it was a welcome surprise. His funeral was also pretty emotional considering we just met him and I love the score there. Luckily that track hadn't been overused yet. The battles in this episode are some of my favorites. They're pretty raw and they have some great moments. Jedi, Clones, STAPs, Crab Droids, Anoobas, that fight in the middle is pretty entertaining. The end fight is pretty good too, I like how Fives is the one to shoot down Sobeck. And I was genuinely surprised Ahsoka was the one to kill him. I feel like that's the first time she kills someone. the space battle is also pretty cool and I like seeing Saesee Tinn. I'm not the first to say that I wish the nexus route had some actual implications. They said both Republic and Separatist homeworlds, so I'd assume that includes Raxus. Why not attack Raxus? It would be a pretty easy way to win the war. Though I am holding out hope that in Season 7, Grievous uses the route to attack Coruscant. Just a thought. I honestly thought I'd give this episode a 10 but after watching it again I have to go with 9/10. A pretty damn good ending. No real flaws. But it doesn't measure up to the heights up "Witches of the Mist" or "Ghosts of Mortis." I don't think it could have ever been as good considering the premise simply isn't as strong, but it does a damn good job with what it can and takes the Citadel Trilogy up a few pegs.
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Post by Star on Dec 20, 2018 22:52:07 GMT -5
It's definitely the weakest episode in the arc, but The Citadel is still a lot of fun. Even though prison breaks are common in Star Wars, I really enjoy this one. We get a very nice mix of clones, Jedi, Separatists, and setting. The interior of the Citadel feels like an appropriate mix in design between the CIS and Empire, and Sobeck is a nice villian. He's a little over the top in this episode, but I think the next two episodes dial him back enough to make it fittingly menacing.
The carbon freezing sequence was very cool, but unfortunately, I also kind of wish it didn't seem so harmless. This scene really makes all the fuss over Han in TESB seem unnecessary. I suppose you could make an argument that it was worse for Han because they didn't know if they'd ever get him back and he also was trapped for a year, but it still feels a little odd when comparing them. Things went a bit too smoothly for the Republic in their escape attempt with this episode too, which made the stakes not feel as high as they should have been. As others also mentioned, the inconsistency with background clones is also annoying, even though it doesn't impact the overall plot.
Besides those critiques though, I did like this episode a lot. It may wind up being the weakest of S3P2 unless I find something from the finale to be worse, but if The Citadel is the lowest point in this 11 episode span, that's a testament to how great these arcs are. I'll go with 8/10 for this one.
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Post by Spidyyr on Dec 21, 2018 1:11:42 GMT -5
Thought I’d go on about this a bit more. The Citadel trilogy, Counterattack in particular, suffers from the same problem as ARC Troopers. By that I mean both have Domino Squad moments that don’t land as well as they should due to there being just so many things going on. Where in ARC Troopers, Echo and Fives felt like they were included as an afterthought, here it feels like they writers forgot they were even in the episode until the climax. This is what makes 99s and Echo’s deaths feel out of nowhere in a bad way, despite the death scenes themselves being great. Admittedly though, the Jedi stories in this arc are much more interesting than they were in ARC Troopers, it is still quite frustrating that neither Echo nor Fives could be given any character moments before the former’s death. Honestly, after Rookies and Clone Cadets, we never really got to spend time with Echo or learn anything new about him. Glad that they finally gave Fives a character after Echo died.
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Post by Star on Dec 21, 2018 9:29:54 GMT -5
Counterattack is a really good continuation of the last episode. I love when singular stories suddenly split into multiple narratives, and having the Republic separate already made this one more interesting for me. Another thing I really admire with this one is that the story feels more natural. Unlike The Citadel, everything that happens here makes sense and doesn't feel forced, particularly the issues that arise. Ending the episode where the heroes have been temporarily defeated is also a nice touch.
Sobeck gets more screen time here, and that's good, since it fleshes him out much more. We get to see how intelligent and ruthless he really is, and that moment he shoots one of the clones in the head demonstrates how far this show has come. The action scenes are really strong too, whether it's the brief encounter by the fuel pipeline or the skirmish at the airfield. Echo's "death" doesn't really make me desire to see him again later in the show, but it was a powerful moment nonetheless. The way the music went from intense to somber was well done, and I like the way Obi-Wan says, "We have to go, now!". It makes him appear both as the authority figure on this mission but also trying to mask his own fear.
One other aspect I really loved in this episode was the dynamic between Tarkin and Anakin. They don't overdo their interactions, which is good, but what we get is amazing. It's really cool to see their relationship begin to form, but I think it's neat to see Tarkin sort of serve as a new mentality for Anakin. It takes some of his poorly developed views from AOTC and allows us to revisit them here, but from a more mature perspective.
I didn't expect to like this episode as much as I did going in, but it holds up very well. However, it doesn't quite reach that elite tier of some other episodes either, so it earns 8.5/10.
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Post by Star on Dec 21, 2018 10:00:48 GMT -5
Citadel Rescue works very well as a finale. Even though the plot is a little more generic than Counterattack, I think it handles itself slightly better overall. I like seeing Sobeck really fear Dooku, even if the conversation doesn't result in much plot advancement. His little eye twitch is something I hadn't noticed before, but it's a good touch.
The Anoobas are a cool addition to this episode and heighten the stakes for sure. Right before they engage with them and the droids though, I enjoy seeing Anakin begin to justify some of Tarkin's views to Ahsoka and Obi-Wan who both clearly aren't so fond of the captain's principles. It's great to get more development like this that actually adds to Anakin's eventual fall from the Jedi and Republic. Seeing Tarkin and Anakin discuss their relationship with the Chancellor is also a fun moment. I haven't read the novel, but I imagine by this far into the war, Tarkin probably knows the true motives of Palpatine but not that he's a Sith Lord.
The fight that results in Piell's death is very intense, and I love that it gives each of the characters remaining a nice solo in it. The Anoobas shake up the combat from just slashing droids, which makes this battle my favorite of the arc possibly. Piell's death works well, but the emotional weight of it isn't as much as I wish it would have been. However, I really appreciate how his death does two things. First, it complicates the relationship between the Jedi Council and Chancellor I'm sure, which is definitely important in the ongoing war. But what I like even more is that it seems to develop Ahsoka's character. Her choosing to enter the mission without permission was very immature of her, but it did fit her character (with the exception of a few outliers, like Mortis). Yet she proves very useful throughout the mission nonetheless and eventually she is the one to ease Piell in his final moments by memorizing half of the information. Something about how this all plays out felt like a major step forward with her character. That's impressive when the arc isn't even centered around her. Between this arc and the next is when I think Ahsoka became one of my favorite characters on the show.
I'm glad we got to see the space battle some, despite being very brief. It felt rightfully enormous and intense, and I appreciate the inclusion of Saesee Tiin. While the final fight on the island was a little lackluster compared to some of the previous fights we've seen in this arc, it serves its purpose. Initially, I wish Sobeck had put up more resistance, but after thinking about it, I prefer his sudden demise, especially at the hands of Ahsoka. Perhaps she was more inclined to kill him after witnessing Piell's death, which, if that was intentional by the writers, works nicely and adds even more to her character. I know when I first watched this several years ago, Sobeck's death surprised me.
All in all, this arc was very solid, with each installment beating the last. It might be the only arc in the entire series where I feel that way, so props to TCW team on this one. Even with all the critiques aside, these episodes are a lot of fun. 9/10.
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Post by Maverick-Jedi-Valen on Feb 2, 2019 7:08:36 GMT -5
As fun and well paced Citadel is, there's no doubt I've got some gripes. Carbon freezing feels like a callback they should have left out, considering how everyone behaved like Han was being treated to something people rarely went through and rarely lived. Also, Spider really hit the nail on the head with Ahsoka. You'd think even she, not just Anakin would behave a lot more wary after getting killed, but instead we're back to reckless 101. That aside, I love the frantic action, the creative deathtraps, Sobeck being so on the edge with his sanity, Piell and Tarkin tagging along, Echo and Fives (albeit in unceremonious fashion) getting in on this and Lola Sayu's terrific design. Pretty fun caper really.
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Post by Maverick-Jedi-Valen on Feb 2, 2019 8:08:34 GMT -5
One thing I love about this arc is its sense of escalation. Everything in Counter Attack has this pressure cooker of tense thrills. Sure squad members pop in and out of existence and Echo's death just feels far too tacked on in a completely tacked on guest appearance, but the stakes are maintained so high throughout that it's not so bad. That firefight near the end was utterly sensational. It's also got some balls with some of the death scenes it pulls on you. The big detail though is how Tarkin sort of opens a window for Anakin to voice his issues with the Jedi's halfway house war tactics, how they don't go far enough. I find it funny however that we're talking about a group that gladly uses child soldiers and grants them ludicrous amounts of responsibility and yet they're still not going far enough Citadel Rescue just ties things into a neat bow. Piell's death isn't as slap dash as you'd think it'd be and the suspense is carried on to a really satisfying end. The anoobas were only a great touch. Really brings back visions of prison break movies when you get to the intense part with the dogs chasing. Even the brief space battle had some merit. Again this arc has its fair share of problems, but it does its job well and kicks off Anakin's relationship with Tarkin excellently. What sounds weird to me though is when Tiin (who by the way I wish had Windu's voice actor like he did in the CW mini series) says there haven't been battles like this since the old Republic. Is this his first time in the war, or something? And even then battles in the old Republic typically had way more than roughly four ships per side
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Post by Star on Feb 2, 2019 13:36:14 GMT -5
One thing I love about this arc is its sense of escalation. Everything in Counter Attack has this pressure cooker of tense thrills. Sure squad members pop in and out of existence and Echo's death just feels far too tacked on in a completely tacked on guest appearance, but the stakes are maintained so high throughout that it's not so bad. That firefight near the end was utterly sensational. It's also got some balls with some of the death scenes it pulls on you. The big detail though is how Tarkin sort of opens a window for Anakin to voice his issues with the Jedi's halfway house war tactics, how they don't go far enough. I find it funny however that we're talking about a group that gladly uses child soldiers and grants them ludicrous amounts of responsibility and yet they're still not going far enough Citadel Rescue just ties things into a neat bow. Piell's death isn't as slap dash as you'd think it'd be and the suspense is carried on to a really satisfying end. The anoobas were only a great touch. Really brings back visions of prison break movies when you get to the intense part with the dogs chasing. Even the brief space battle had some merit. Again this arc has its fair share of problems, but it does its job well and kicks off Anakin's relationship with Tarkin excellently. What sounds weird to me though is when Tiin (who by the way I wish had Windu's voice actor like he did in the CW mini series) says there haven't been battles like this since the old Republic. Is this his first time in the war, or something? And even then battles in the old Republic typically had way more than roughly four ships per side Tiin's comment did seem a little weird if you take it in terms of the size of the battle. I personally think of it as a reference to them having to amass a force to rescue several Jedi, something that might have been unheard of since "the days of the Old Republic".
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Post by Spidyyr on Feb 2, 2019 13:56:24 GMT -5
One thing I love about this arc is its sense of escalation. Everything in Counter Attack has this pressure cooker of tense thrills. Sure squad members pop in and out of existence and Echo's death just feels far too tacked on in a completely tacked on guest appearance, but the stakes are maintained so high throughout that it's not so bad. That firefight near the end was utterly sensational. It's also got some balls with some of the death scenes it pulls on you. The big detail though is how Tarkin sort of opens a window for Anakin to voice his issues with the Jedi's halfway house war tactics, how they don't go far enough. I find it funny however that we're talking about a group that gladly uses child soldiers and grants them ludicrous amounts of responsibility and yet they're still not going far enough Citadel Rescue just ties things into a neat bow. Piell's death isn't as slap dash as you'd think it'd be and the suspense is carried on to a really satisfying end. The anoobas were only a great touch. Really brings back visions of prison break movies when you get to the intense part with the dogs chasing. Even the brief space battle had some merit. Again this arc has its fair share of problems, but it does its job well and kicks off Anakin's relationship with Tarkin excellently. What sounds weird to me though is when Tiin (who by the way I wish had Windu's voice actor like he did in the CW mini series) says there haven't been battles like this since the old Republic. Is this his first time in the war, or something? And even then battles in the old Republic typically had way more than roughly four ships per side Tiin's comment did seem a little weird if you take it in terms of the size of the battle. I personally think of it as a reference to them having to amass a force to rescue several Jedi, something that might have been unheard of since "the days of the Old Republic". Maybe he forgot about Geonosis.
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Post by Star on Feb 2, 2019 14:51:44 GMT -5
Tiin's comment did seem a little weird if you take it in terms of the size of the battle. I personally think of it as a reference to them having to amass a force to rescue several Jedi, something that might have been unheard of since "the days of the Old Republic". Maybe he forgot about Geonosis. Perhaps I more so meant in the sense of rescuing them from a prison during a galactic conflict, but maybe it was a line thrown in simply to reference that era and nothing more.
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Post by Maverick-Jedi-Valen on Feb 3, 2019 4:22:02 GMT -5
Tiin's comment did seem a little weird if you take it in terms of the size of the battle. I personally think of it as a reference to them having to amass a force to rescue several Jedi, something that might have been unheard of since "the days of the Old Republic". Maybe he forgot about Geonosis. For a guy who can read minds to some extent, you'd think he'd be able to handle some simple short term memory
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