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Post by Kenbo on Jan 3, 2014 10:22:28 GMT -5
Video games are canon right? Cause, if they aren't, that means TOR isn't canon, which means that Malgus isn't canon, meaning that Vader wins by default.  I guess so I mean we wouldn't have this duel if it wasn't.. |
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Post by Star on Jan 3, 2014 10:23:25 GMT -5
Malgus is still a very powerful Sith. Irregardless of who wins, it's an extremely close fight.
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Post by Pinda on Jan 3, 2014 10:25:04 GMT -5
Also, I want to make this clear to everyone if something isn't overwrited by the movies or TCW it is just as high canon as the films because no greater level of canon has overwriten it therefore it is the highest canon for that certain story. You can Look it up on Wookiepedia and you will see Kessel is canon, in fact almost all the Darth Vader stories set between EP3 and EP4 are completely canon. I consider most of the EU non-canon despite this. They're fan fictions basically, only their stories got approved by someone that doesn't really have any authority over the canon of Star Wars. Besides, much of the EU has overpowered characters and exaggeration we can't consider all of it canon for this discussion. The Vader from the movies was unable to defeat his poorly trained son, how would that same Vader have managed to kill a group of Jedi masters? He was just overpowered in that story. |
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Post by bobafett590 on Jan 3, 2014 10:27:17 GMT -5
The guy in the trailer was no where near the level of Cin Drallig trust me, I think he was more of a negotiator so didn't focus much on lightsaber combat. Also, I want to make this clear to everyone if something isn't overwrited by the movies or TCW it is just as high canon as the films because no greater level of canon has overwriten it therefore it is the highest canon for that certain story. You can Look it up on Wookiepedia and you will see Kessel is canon, in fact almost all the Darth Vader stories set between EP3 and EP4 are completely canon. And the jedi in the temple when Malgus attacked it were mostly padawans only a few masters were there. Malgus only usually fought Knights and padawans, easy fight for a Sith Lord. However he still managed to get WTFpwned by Staele Shan when she was a knight Have you played TOR? I mean I haven't so I wouldn't know but I know Newan has so I kind of trusted him on that.. And a ton of things haven't been overwrited by TCW or the movies. Take emperor clones for example.... Is that canon... Mostly Padawans? Why would the Padawans jump to dueling all the Sith Lords to get killed and all the skilled Masters stay behind? No, all available Jedi were fighting there Mm also not sure about this since I haven't played TOR but solely based on the trailers I guess it's true.. The Deceived novel (which tells the story of the trailer) says that most were padawans, the rest were knights and masters, which was a very small amount. And yes the novel is canon because the info in it hasn't been disproven. |
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Post by Pinda on Jan 3, 2014 10:27:47 GMT -5
Video games are canon right? Cause, if they aren't, that means TOR isn't canon, which means that Malgus isn't canon, meaning that Vader wins by default. I don't think they're fully canon. But I'd the TOR games have their own canon, which is higher than the book/comic canon but still far lower than the movies. Because the TOR games don't mess up existing stories or characters, but still it's not an official Star Wars story and some things just make little sense. |
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Post by bobafett590 on Jan 3, 2014 10:30:31 GMT -5
Also, I want to make this clear to everyone if something isn't overwrited by the movies or TCW it is just as high canon as the films because no greater level of canon has overwriten it therefore it is the highest canon for that certain story. You can Look it up on Wookiepedia and you will see Kessel is canon, in fact almost all the Darth Vader stories set between EP3 and EP4 are completely canon. I consider most of the EU non-canon despite this. They're fan fictions basically, only their stories got approved by someone that doesn't really have any authority over the canon of Star Wars. Besides, much of the EU has overpowered characters and exaggeration we can't consider all of it canon for this discussion. The Vader from the movies was unable to defeat his poorly trained son, how would that same Vader have managed to kill a group of Jedi masters? He was just overpowered in that story. Luke was poorly trained but extremely gifted so could learn very quickly. The movie Vader is as strong as the EU+Movie Vader because of George's quote which was talking about the movie Vader specifically. And the Jedi Masters their had never seen his style before and he combined all the forms (most of which he was a master of) into one, this would include Ataru, Yoda's form and Juyo, the Emperor's, plus Darth Vader's excellent affinity with the force, means he could move at amazing speeds. The Emperor, who had mastered Juyo (which Vader probably mastered also) was able to move so quickly Anakin couldn't see him moving from one place to the next. (canon of course) |
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Post by bobafett590 on Jan 3, 2014 10:31:16 GMT -5
Video games are canon right? Cause, if they aren't, that means TOR isn't canon, which means that Malgus isn't canon, meaning that Vader wins by default. I don't think they're fully canon. But I'd the TOR games have their own canon, which is higher than the book/comic canon but still far lower than the movies. Because the TOR games don't mess up existing stories or characters, but still it's not an official Star Wars story and some things just make little sense. It messed up HK-47 and Revan real bad, made them look like pathetic weaklings |
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Post by Pinda on Jan 3, 2014 10:35:15 GMT -5
I don't think they're fully canon. But I'd the TOR games have their own canon, which is higher than the book/comic canon but still far lower than the movies. Because the TOR games don't mess up existing stories or characters, but still it's not an official Star Wars story and some things just make little sense. It messed up HK-47 and Revan real bad, made them look like pathetic weaklings HK-47 and Revan are TOR characters. |
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Post by bobafett590 on Jan 3, 2014 10:36:26 GMT -5
It messed up HK-47 and Revan real bad, made them look like pathetic weaklings HK-47 and Revan are TOR characters. No, they are KOTOR characters. |
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Post by bobafett590 on Jan 3, 2014 10:38:04 GMT -5
We're trying to compare two characters, one of which only appears in EU continuity, and so we must apply EU info as liberally as we can. Unless there is a direct and unambiguous contradiction to the movie canon, we must assume that any description of Vader's EU-enhanced capabilities is accurate for the purpose of this conversation.
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Post by Pinda on Jan 3, 2014 10:39:22 GMT -5
HK-47 and Revan are TOR characters. No, they are KOTOR characters. So they're characters from TOR games (KOTOR + SWTOR). |
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Post by Pinda on Jan 3, 2014 10:42:34 GMT -5
We're trying to compare two characters, one of which only appears in EU continuity, and so we must apply EU info as liberally as we can. Unless there is a direct and unambiguous contradiction to the movie canon, we must assume that any description of Vader's EU-enhanced capabilities is accurate for the purpose of this conversation. Well then... let's not forget Vader was defeated by his own apprentice with ease. |
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Post by bobafett590 on Jan 3, 2014 10:52:40 GMT -5
We're trying to compare two characters, one of which only appears in EU continuity, and so we must apply EU info as liberally as we can. Unless there is a direct and unambiguous contradiction to the movie canon, we must assume that any description of Vader's EU-enhanced capabilities is accurate for the purpose of this conversation. Well then... let's not forget Vader was defeated by his own apprentice with ease. And let's not forget that TFU novel states that Vader did not want to kill Starkiller and was holding back.... |
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Post by bobafett590 on Jan 3, 2014 10:54:58 GMT -5
No, they are KOTOR characters. So they're characters from TOR games (KOTOR + SWTOR). No Kotor is not with TOR. TOR was not a Kotor 3 so can't be associated with Kotor. Plus, EA made TOR and TOR is set 300 yrs after Kotor |
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Post by Pinda on Jan 3, 2014 10:55:15 GMT -5
Well then... let's not forget Vader was defeated by his own apprentice with ease. And let's not forget that TFU novel states that Vader did not want to kill Starkiller and was holding back.... So he was holding back allowing Starkiller to kill him twice? What would Vader gain from that? |
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Post by Pinda on Jan 3, 2014 10:56:47 GMT -5
So they're characters from TOR games (KOTOR + SWTOR). No Kotor is not with TOR. TOR was not a Kotor 3 so can't be associated with TOR. Plus, EA made TOR and TOR is set 300 yrs after Kotor By TOR I mean The Old Republic era. By SWTOR I mean the online game. And Bioware made KOTOR and SWTOR. |
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Post by bobafett590 on Jan 3, 2014 10:58:31 GMT -5
And let's not forget that TFU novel states that Vader did not want to kill Starkiller and was holding back.... So he was holding back allowing Starkiller to kill him twice? What would Vader gain from that? Well the Emperor engineered the entire thing and the canon Starkiller was lightsided. Idk all the details, you'll need to look it up but Vader definitely wasn't giving it his all |
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Post by Newan on Jan 3, 2014 11:26:45 GMT -5
Star, Vader is not the greatest force user. He might have been after more training and if he wouldn't have had his little accident on Mustafar. But Yoda, Sidious and probably many others still had greater knowledge and power over the Force than Vader ever had. I'd say Yoda, Sidious, Sith Emperor, Revan, Marka Ragnos, Exar Kun and Luke Skywalker (after he rebuilt the order) all have more force ability then Vader.... |
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Post by Newan on Jan 3, 2014 11:41:21 GMT -5
And I really don't see how TOR messed up Revan. It's kinda a no brainer that he would go too Dromund Kaas after the death of Malak. Even Mandalore of the Mandalorian wars was a puppet of the emperor. Revan had too go see what was out in the shadows. And Revan, Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge may have actually killed the Emperor if they continued and that was the real emperor as well. Everyone says the Emperor dies by the Jedi Knight which is false as the Sith Warrior gets a message from the Hand of the Emperor saying he's still alive. The Knight only killed the voice of the emperor.
Now back too Revan his story was pretty good in SWTOR he was woken up from Stasis almost 300 years later the Emperor wanted him as a sith again because Revan is a master tactician and one of the best fighters. When the Republic strike team saved him he Revan would have stayed with the Republic he would have easily turned the war too their favor but Revan went to find the foundry. Now that plan could work given it's similar to the Starforge. But Revans approach was wrong he wanted an entire genocide against 98% of imperial population.
But it's not so unrealistic that Revan would be defeated from ... The Emperors Wrath, Darth Nox, The best Bounty hunter in the galaxy and a Cipher agent. But Revan isn't dead anyways actually I'm hoping the new game bioware is making is KOTOR 3 though the Jedi knight story is very similar too what a KOTOR is like in all honestly.
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Post by Namialus on Jan 3, 2014 11:59:31 GMT -5
If we are giving the advantage of the EU to Malgus, we must give it to Vader as well.
I don't know enough about Malgus to participate in this conversation, so that would be unfair. *disperses*
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Post by Newan on Jan 3, 2014 12:03:42 GMT -5
If we are giving the advantage of the EU to Malgus, we must give it to Vader as well. I don't know enough about Malgus to participate in this conversation, so that would be unfair. *disperses* Well Malgus does not have no EU advantage since he's from EU he does not have any OP EU stuff.... Plus everything Malgus had appeared in is clearly cannon where some stuff for Vader could be more questionable. |
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Post by Newan on Jan 3, 2014 12:05:55 GMT -5
I thoughT HK and Revan where rather good in SWTOR too bad they couldn't be in it for longer than just that mission and Maelstrom prison. HK makes a cameo in False Emperor though. There's also a SWTOR advertisement on my screen now as well  |
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Post by Potato on Jan 3, 2014 12:25:12 GMT -5
Look at Vader's movie duels. In ANH, he beat Obi-Wan, but that's because Obi-Wan was fine with being struck down and he was older anyway. In TESB, he beat Luke by using the environment around him to his advantage. Plus Luke was still very inexperienced at the time. In Return of the Jedi, Luke beats Vader. It doesn't matter if Vader is "holding back" or not, he still lost. So in all of these duels it looks like his force abilities really help him. But this is neutral ground and there's nothing he can throw at Malgus. Malgus doesn't rely on that and can just shock Vader without lightning, and lightning does critically wound him. Vader's also slower with his mechanical parts while Malgus is quicker and more agile. Because Vader's slower, he can't take any cover during the duel. He can't run and he can't hide to recover. He has to face Malgus and in the end Malgus would just overpower him.
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Post by bobafett590 on Jan 3, 2014 13:56:41 GMT -5
Look at Vader's movie duels. In ANH, he beat Obi-Wan, but that's because Obi-Wan was fine with being struck down and he was older anyway. In TESB, he beat Luke by using the environment around him to his advantage. Plus Luke was still very inexperienced at the time. In Return of the Jedi, Luke beats Vader. It doesn't matter if Vader is "holding back" or not, he still lost. So in all of these duels it looks like his force abilities really help him. But this is neutral ground and there's nothing he can throw at Malgus. Malgus doesn't rely on that and can just shock Vader without lightning, and lightning does critically wound him. Vader's also slower with his mechanical parts while Malgus is quicker and more agile. Because Vader's slower, he can't take any cover during the duel. He can't run and he can't hide to recover. He has to face Malgus and in the end Malgus would just overpower him. You're making out that getting defeated by Luke is a shameful thing . IT'S NOT. Luke Skywalker is probably one of the most powerful Jedi who has ever lived, he shares a similarity with Revan, he can learn extremely quickly, a rare feat, he could do in weeks what a normal Jedi would take years to accomplish. He only won in ROTJ because he could mirror his Father's abilities , a very rare trait and he could learn a lot from Obi Wan after he died. That's why the Emperor saw more potential in Luke and knew that Luke would be able to become more powerful than Vader. Malgus would be completely destroyed in lightsaber and force combat. Vader is a very quick duelist, he has mastered almost all the lightsaber forms and has combined them all into one, making him unstoppable in lightsaber combat. He doesn't need to move because Malgus wouldn't be able to break his defense. He can also use Kinetite if Malgus came close (Luke was only able to block this when Obi Wan helped him, making it a very powerful technique) Vader would deflect all of Malgus' force attacks, then Malgus will try to fight him in saber combat and get demolished. Darth Vader's reflexes and endurance far outstretch Malgus' and Malgus' feats pale in comparison to Darth Vader. Anyway, the "Malgus will win because of lightning" argument has already been thoroughly debunked, Vader can deflect and block force powers and he already survived Palpatine's lightning which can turn a whole room of enemies to ash. |
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Post by bobafett590 on Jan 3, 2014 14:09:42 GMT -5
If we are giving the advantage of the EU to Malgus, we must give it to Vader as well. I don't know enough about Malgus to participate in this conversation, so that would be unfair. *disperses* Well Malgus does not have no EU advantage since he's from EU he does not have any OP EU stuff.... Plus everything Malgus had appeared in is clearly cannon where some stuff for Vader could be more questionable. Things Vader have done are probably on a higher level of canon than Malgus'. |
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Post by Potato on Jan 3, 2014 14:09:54 GMT -5
Look at Vader's movie duels. In ANH, he beat Obi-Wan, but that's because Obi-Wan was fine with being struck down and he was older anyway. In TESB, he beat Luke by using the environment around him to his advantage. Plus Luke was still very inexperienced at the time. In Return of the Jedi, Luke beats Vader. It doesn't matter if Vader is "holding back" or not, he still lost. So in all of these duels it looks like his force abilities really help him. But this is neutral ground and there's nothing he can throw at Malgus. Malgus doesn't rely on that and can just shock Vader without lightning, and lightning does critically wound him. Vader's also slower with his mechanical parts while Malgus is quicker and more agile. Because Vader's slower, he can't take any cover during the duel. He can't run and he can't hide to recover. He has to face Malgus and in the end Malgus would just overpower him. You're making out that getting defeated by Luke is a shameful thing . IT'S NOT. Luke Skywalker is probably one of the most powerful Jedi who has ever lived, he shares a similarity with Revan, he can learn extremely quickly, a rare feat, he could do in weeks what a normal Jedi would take years to accomplish. He only won in ROTJ because he could mirror his Father's abilities , a very rare trait and he could learn a lot from Obi Wan after he died. That's why the Emperor saw more potential in Luke and knew that Luke would be able to become more powerful than Vader. Malgus would be completely destroyed in lightsaber and force combat. Vader is a very quick duelist, he has mastered almost all the lightsaber forms and has combined them all into one, making him unstoppable in lightsaber combat. He doesn't need to move because Malgus wouldn't be able to break his defense. He can also use Kinetite if Malgus came close (Luke was only able to block this when Obi Wan helped him, making it a very powerful technique) Vader would deflect all of Malgus' force attacks, then Malgus will try to fight him in saber combat and get demolished. Darth Vader's reflexes and endurance far outstretch Malgus' and Malgus' feats pale in comparison to Darth Vader. Anyway, the "Malgus will win because of lightning" argument has already been thoroughly debunked, Vader can deflect and block force powers and he already survived Palpatine's lightning which can turn a whole room of enemies to ash. It's not shameful, but Luke was barely a jedi knight in Return of the Jedi. He was not at his best when he beat Vader. He founded the new jedi order and became a jedi master later. Vader isn't that quick. His mechanical parts slow him down and he's not as speedy as someone like Malgus. He's slow and it was stated that the making of the duels in the PT were supposed to be faster and more energetic because George Lucas said himself that in ANH the duel between Obi-Wan and Vader was basically a duel between an old man and a crippled man. Vader is slow and crippled. He can still fight very well but he's not very fast. Malgus is quicker and has many more options. It's also been shown in Vader's duels that he's very vulnerable when in a plain open space so that would give Malgus an even higher upper hand. And lightning from Malgus seriously affects Vader, it shut down his life support when he killed Sidious. |
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Post by bobafett590 on Jan 3, 2014 14:16:51 GMT -5
You're making out that getting defeated by Luke is a shameful thing . IT'S NOT. Luke Skywalker is probably one of the most powerful Jedi who has ever lived, he shares a similarity with Revan, he can learn extremely quickly, a rare feat, he could do in weeks what a normal Jedi would take years to accomplish. He only won in ROTJ because he could mirror his Father's abilities , a very rare trait and he could learn a lot from Obi Wan after he died. That's why the Emperor saw more potential in Luke and knew that Luke would be able to become more powerful than Vader. Malgus would be completely destroyed in lightsaber and force combat. Vader is a very quick duelist, he has mastered almost all the lightsaber forms and has combined them all into one, making him unstoppable in lightsaber combat. He doesn't need to move because Malgus wouldn't be able to break his defense. He can also use Kinetite if Malgus came close (Luke was only able to block this when Obi Wan helped him, making it a very powerful technique) Vader would deflect all of Malgus' force attacks, then Malgus will try to fight him in saber combat and get demolished. Darth Vader's reflexes and endurance far outstretch Malgus' and Malgus' feats pale in comparison to Darth Vader. Anyway, the "Malgus will win because of lightning" argument has already been thoroughly debunked, Vader can deflect and block force powers and he already survived Palpatine's lightning which can turn a whole room of enemies to ash. It's not shameful, but Luke was barely a jedi knight in Return of the Jedi. He was not at his best when he beat Vader. He founded the new jedi order and became a jedi master later. Vader isn't that quick. His mechanical parts slow him down and he's not as speedy as someone like Malgus. He's slow and it was stated that the making of the duels in the PT were supposed to be faster and more energetic because George Lucas said himself that in ANH the duel between Obi-Wan and Vader was basically a duel between an old man and a crippled man. Vader is slow and crippled. He can still fight very well but he's not very fast. Malgus is quicker and has many more options. It's also been shown in Vader's duels that he's very vulnerable when in a plain open space so that would give Malgus an even higher upper hand. And lightning from Malgus seriously affects Vader, it shut down his life support when he killed Sidious. But still Vader has Juyo and Ataru in his form which enhances his speed and agility and again, lightning is ineffective against Vader unless Vader doesn't deflect it (which he would do), also, Sidious' lightning is probably far more powerful than Malgus', seeing as how Palaptine's lightning is the most powerful and that wasn't enough to kill Vader instantly even when it was blasted at him at point blank range, lightning is useless against Vader unless Vader drops his lightsaber and stops using the force. In addition, Malgus lives in a time with numerous Sith Lords, this severely dilutes his powers, whereas Vader only has one other sith around. And whether Luke is a Knight or not is irrelevant, he was one of the most powerful and gifted Jedi of all time Vader is very quick, here we see him using one hand to fight the Dark Woman, a Jedi Master:  ![]() |
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Post by Newan on Jan 3, 2014 14:18:03 GMT -5
Plus I think Malgus could actually break Vaders defense not from skill but from physical strength we see from the deceived trailer he kicked Master Zallow across the hallway of the Temple. Also when Malgus is fighting the Zabrak in "Return" he has him on the defensive pushing him back with his strength.
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Post by bobafett590 on Jan 3, 2014 14:22:31 GMT -5
Plus I think Malgus could actually break Vaders defense not from skill but from physical strength we see from the deceived trailer he kicked Master Zallow across the hallway of the Temple. Also when Malgus is fighting the Zabrak in "Return" he has him on the defensive pushing him back with his strength.Z Zallow was more of a negotiator, he probably used Niman or Makashi, weak forms compared to the strength of all of them combined, and the strength of that Jedi was probably puny compared to Vader. Vader combines all forms, so he incorprates offensive and defensive techniques, no Jedi managed to break Vader's style until Luke cam along |
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Post by Newan on Jan 3, 2014 14:24:23 GMT -5
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it’s been quite a while. I’ve been pretty good, how about yourself?
Sept 30, 2024 21:29:31 GMT -5
it’s been quite a while. I’ve been pretty good, how about yourself?
Sept 30, 2024 21:29:31 GMT -5
Nov 11, 2024 16:43:58 GMT -5
Nov 11, 2024 16:43:58 GMT -5